Your views on how it works please...

for esoteric discussions, spiritual ruminations, metaphysical mutterings etc.

Your views on how it works please...

Postby Milkdrops » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:48 am

Okay I want to try and get some thoughts from you folks about how this works.

Would you think its possible with the idea for dowsing to work through spiritual means? i.e "spiritual energies?". A thought I have and others have is the notion that ones unconcious mind giving us the answers, is a case of getting information from the "universal mainframe". The notion of our mind unconciously opening up and recieving information from another dimension (god some would even say) could be interpreted from a spiritual theroy.
The other main explanation would be to do with more "earths forces" and certain energies in the atmosphere or ground directing the rods.

Which ideas do you guys veer more towards? the spiritual type idea or the earths energys or perhaps a bit of both. Your views please on how it works.
Milkdrops
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:22 am
Location: UK

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Ian Pegler » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:38 am

Milkdrops wrote:Okay I want to try and get some thoughts from you folks about how this works.

Would you think its possible with the idea for dowsing to work through spiritual means? i.e "spiritual energies?". A thought I have and others have is the notion that ones unconcious mind giving us the answers, is a case of getting information from the "universal mainframe". The notion of our mind unconciously opening up and recieving information from another dimension (god some would even say) could be interpreted from a spiritual theroy.
The other main explanation would be to do with more "earths forces" and certain energies in the atmosphere or ground directing the rods.

Which ideas do you guys veer more towards? the spiritual type idea or the earths energys or perhaps a bit of both. Your views please on how it works.


I am reminded of the Blues Brothers movie where they're in Bob's Diner and they ask the bar-maid "what kind of music do you have here?" to which she responds "oh we have both kinds - Country AND Western!".

So is it really a question of "Country" or "Western" or a bit of both? Could there not be something beyond these two alternatives?

I am tempted to cite Grahame's signature:

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself but nature exposed to our method of questioning.

—Werner Heisenberg


It seems to me that this is quite true, and it applies not only to dowsing questions but also to the way we think about dowsing itself. The trouble is, the way in which we think about things is constrained by our language, which has evolved in a particular way, with strong influences from Western Man's "science", Western Man's religion, the Industrial Revolution and so on.

The fact that you phrase the question as you do is evidence of this. The fact that you ask the question at all may also be evidence of this. The metaphors you employ are definitely evidence of this: "forces", "energies", "dimensions", "universal mainframe"?? Why are we suddenly talking about computers? Why are we using the language of Western Man's science?

Come to think of it, why are we so desparate for metaphors at all?

Ian
Ian Pegler
BSD member
 
Posts: 4025
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Aberystwyth, Mid Wales

Postby simonwheeler » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:49 pm

If it works...why question that it works? Also, what works for me when dowsing may not work for you - and vice versa.
Science or art?

I actually like the use of metaphors- they can be a useful means of communication when "traditional" means don't work. But that begs the question "communication between whom?"

Sometimes we are too eager to look for empirical, "scientific", objective, within-realms-of-what-we already-know type answers....sometimes it really is a case of "ours is not to reason why". Maybe the beings/people of Atlantis knew the answers...and look what happened to them!
As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

www.simongordonwheeler.co.uk

Simon
User avatar
simonwheeler
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:22 pm
Location: Wigtown, Scotland

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Lyndon Ronstadt » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:37 am

We could try using dowsing to ask about ... dowsing. What? How? Who pulls the strings? etc. Or shall I go stand in my corner?

The answers will of course be conditioned by our 'world view' at any one time but if we are persistent we may find we are building a body of 'evidence' that goes far beyond the question of how dowsing actually works and into a candid scrutiny of our own philosophy.

We may find our accumulated 'evidence' is broadly static over time, into which we can place new 'facts' without the necessity for a re-think. Or, starting with one 'world view', we may end up with another and, if we are dispassionate enough to follow the yellow brick road of ratiocination, discover some new and startling facts about 'life the universe and everything'.

I'm immensely pleased with the perspective I've accumulated over the few short years I've been able to dowse, based of course on the philosophy of others, but nevertheless satisfied that what is stated in certain books is broadly confirmed by dowsing.

There are many paths, apparently, and we progress in our own peculiar ways. Dowsing helps us understand our own peculiar 'trajectory', determined by our own 'mode de pensée'.
Lyndon Ronstadt
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Geoff Stuttaford » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:24 pm

Hi Lyndon,

Re your question about how it works, I have found (by dowsing) that there are several sources available to dowsers depending on what additional abilities individual dowsers possess, e.g. a dowser who is also clairvoyant would be avle to get info from at least a clairvoyant source, and a tarot card reader likewise.

Other external sources can include the Spirit World or other dimensions. Individuals from these sources can access our nervous systems to operate dowsing tools we use. Our internal source is our subconscious mind not our unconscious mind - The latter can play havoc with answers as it contains our belief system.
Geoff

Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel (Polonius)
User avatar
Geoff Stuttaford
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Lyndon Ronstadt » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:22 am

Thanks, Geoff.

Yes, I realise that there are other methods by which we can get information, dowsing being just one of the many forms falling under the general heading of Divination (vicars may shudder). I assumed from the original question that dowsing as a means of understanding dowsing had not been considered, hence my reply.

The idea that otherworldly beings manipulate our nervous system, prompts the question of who is in control if chaos is to be avoided. Perhaps pre-human entities such as devas and nature spirits are responsible for the actual manipulation, while post-human entities provide the data.

As to subconscious vs unconscious I can't get a grip on the distinction, believing as I do that many psychologists need a good psychiatrist. Additionally their theories were based on a study of 'duff' people which, in other sciences, would be outlawed as 'unscientific' for not first establishing a substantive 'norm'. Instead, I posit Personal and External Volitions which vie with each other in making a deposit to our Mechanism of Perception (whatever form that may take). This, at least for me, explains the phenomenon of Mediumship and highlights the need for a quiet mind if any contact beyond the physical realm is to be heard above the chatter of the Monkey - Personal Volition.

But, getting back to the original question, one has to use whatever means one has at ones disposal to get answers, be it by dowsing, zooming in the astral or shamanic practice. The only comment of any value I can make is to rely on ones own experiences and not rely exclusively on those of others.

I'm tempted to say there are no easy ways to find what one is looking for but I don't actually believe that. I subscribe to the 'work smart, not hard' school of philosophy which assumes that if you knock on enough doors one will open to you without much fuss. That said, I've been knocking a long time. The key to this is the Mechanism of Perception by which hunches or temporary preoccupations leading to something useful, are lobbed our way. By this Mechanism we are INFLUENCED but not controlled. (Strikes me as a fine distinction if we are unaware that these lobbed ideas are not actually our own, but there ya go).

By using the tools at my disposal I discovered that Divination is a Spiritual Path. There are many such Paths and one discovers them mainly by accident. I also discovered I'm NOT technically a Diviner. Quite why I'm allowed to dowse at all is still a mystery. But, using dowsing, I discovered I can get messages from allegedly otherworldly beings. I'm not a Medium any more than I'm a dowser - it's just a handy faculty vouchsafed me pro tempus (I assume).

What I AM is a Herbalist (supposedly). This dowses as my Spiritual Path. But not as a medicinal herbalist, so don't hit me up to cure furuncles on fundaments any time soon.
Lyndon Ronstadt
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby simonwheeler » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:52 am

Quite why I'm allowed to dowse at all is still a mystery

Oh dear.... "allowed"? You may not be keen on psychologists but may be worth looking at the theories around Locus of Control.
As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

www.simongordonwheeler.co.uk

Simon
User avatar
simonwheeler
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:22 pm
Location: Wigtown, Scotland

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Geoff Stuttaford » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:59 am

“As to subconscious vs unconscious I can't get a grip on the distinction, believing as I do that many psychologists need a good psychiatrist. “

The unconscious mind contains the belief system not the subconscious and ones belief, if introduced into dowsing, can drastically affect the answers you will get when dowsing because it is so much more powerful than the subconscious which is normally engaged when dowsing.. As a dowser, I am a little surprised that you have not dowsed whether your ideas are correct or not.

You mention that you have knocked on many doors for information. May I ask What info do you require and have you dowsed for it ?

“ (Strikes me as a fine distinction if we are unaware that these lobbed ideas are not actually our own, but there ya go).”


Do the answers you get, from others as you call them, when dowsing, conflict with your belief system to such an extent that you immediately dismiss the answers you get, and could this be why you are still knocking on doors? I must admit that this has happened to me in the past.


“Quite why I'm allowed to dowse at all is still a mystery.”

Good point !. I would submit that most of us have been dowsers in many of our past lives and that something in this life has triggered a renewed interest in the subject. I understand that the ability to dowse is retained in what I cal the “Soul Memory” and all it needs is a trigger to get it started .
Geoff

Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel (Polonius)
User avatar
Geoff Stuttaford
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Lyndon Ronstadt » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:36 pm

Seems my last post has set the cat amongst the brier pipes and the carpet slippers. :shock: "WHAT???"

As a dowser, I am a little surprised that you have not dowsed whether your ideas are correct or not.


Does your surprise come from your subconscious, Goeff? I'm sorry but we can all play THAT game. Of course I HAVE. There is little point in dowsing, I submit, if one is unwilling to accept the results of ones investigations. And if one is affronted by what one finds then perhaps a lie down is preferable to scurrying to the nearest analyst. The mind may well be the slayer of the real but it's also the slayer of our emotional responses to concepts we do not like. Concepts are either right, wrong or unproven and should not be the cause of heated debate.

Do the answers you get, from others as you call them, when dowsing, conflict with your belief system to such an extent that you immediately dismiss the answers you get ...,


My belief system is based on Theosophy and the writings of Alice Bailey which I use, not as a psychological CRUTCH, but as a PERSPECTIVE from which my particular mind can squeeze some juice; and ask questions for which the books seem to have no answers. If the answers I get seem at odds with my belief system I'm obliged to find out why. But if I cannot immediately resolve the matter I shelve it, not bin it, until I can.

As an example: I asked (the dowsing process) if the 5th Globe (Globe E in Theosophy) has an Astral Plane. I got a negative. I then asked if desire was eliminated from Globe E and again got a negative. Desire but no Astral? Bit of head scratching. Eventually I posited TWO planes of desire - one POSITIVE and one NEGATIVE. This time dowsing confirmed that the hypothesis was correct. If one cannot see the great benefit in using dowsing in this way there is nothing more I can say which would be of help to the sceptic.

and could this be why you are still knocking on doors?


'Still', Geoff? Does the quest not go on for ever? 'STILL' is the cry of idée fixe in the belief that there is a fixed body of knowledge which the sages of the past have already delivered and which we can find if we are 'pure' enough. As far as I'm concerned the sages were just priming the conceptual pump of humanity and it is up to us to take the matter further.

From the occult perspective spiritual development goes hand in hand with REASONING from the outside in, as it were, while for the mystic the same spiritual advancement comes by attempting to BE what one wishers to be - the perspective of the heart - and by accumulating as many words and woolly phrases as ones friends and associates.

Simon, 'allowed' assumes kingdoms of nature higher and wiser than the human and that the denizens of these kingdoms supervise human spiritual evolution. They are the custodians of the Plans of Deity and 'wield the law' to the subordinate kingdoms - us. If a human being has not met the criteria which recommends him to receive additional 'facility' such facility will not be forthcoming. The question then arises as to Man's control of his own destiny which of course is a local destiny. Yes, he controls his local destiny but not, obviously, the destiny of nature/the universe in general. For me to discover late in life that I am able to dowse, and gain the freedom that this facility gives me was and remains a surprise. I did dowse to discover if I'd always had this facility and found that I was given it about ten years before discovering it.

By dowsing the way I do I've built up a body of 'knowledge' that time and consequence has - thus far - not embarrassed. And if, in the hereafter, I discover it's all b'locks, there's always the pub and the barmaid's bosom.
Lyndon Ronstadt
 
Posts: 324
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:23 pm

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Geoff Stuttaford » Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:36 am

Lyndon ; Does your surprise come from your subconscious, Goeff?

Geoff ; P doubt it, Lyndon. I cannot contact my subconscious mind.

L: I'm sorry but we can all play THAT game. Of course I HAVE. There is little point in dowsing, I submit, if one is unwilling to accept the results of ones investigations. And if one is affronted by what one finds then perhaps a lie down is preferable to scurrying to the nearest analyst. The mind may well be the slayer of the real but it's also the slayer of our emotional responses to concepts we do not like.

G: Am I right in thinking that, at times, you do not trust the source of the info you get ?


L: Concepts are either right, wrong or unproven and should not be the cause of heated debate.

G: Agreed.


GL: Do the answers you get, from others as you call them, when dowsing, conflict with your belief system to such an extent that you immediately dismiss the answers you get ...,


L: My belief system is based on Theosophy and the writings of Alice Bailey which I use, not as a psychological CRUTCH, but as a PERSPECTIVE from which my particular mind can squeeze some juice; and ask questions for which the books seem to have no answers. If the answers I get seem at odds with my belief system I'm obliged to find out why. But if I cannot immediately resolve the matter I shelve it, not bin it, until I can.
G: Are you therefore dowsing the concepts held in Theosophy as to their correctness ? If so, it is something I have done many times with different religious concepts and my dowsing has dismissed all of them as being invented by man to try to explain things they do not understand, or to establish control over population . I am not critical of any religion that excludes imposing itself by force.

G: and could this be why you are still knocking on doors?


L: 'Still', Geoff? Does the quest not go on for ever? 'STILL' is the cry of idée fixe in the belief that there is a fixed body of knowledge which the sages of the past have already delivered and which we can find if we are 'pure' enough.

G: Does that mean that you have resolved all your problems whether they have dowsed answers of yes or no ?


L: From the occult perspective spiritual development goes hand in hand with REASONING from the outside in, as it were, while for the mystic the same spiritual advancement comes by attempting to BE what one wishers to be - the perspective of the heart - and by accumulating as many words and woolly phrases as ones friends and associates.

G: That may be the case for some but I have come across people with metaphysical abilities who do nor know why or how they possess them or what they should do with them, sometimes even to be afraid of them.

Thanks, Lyndon, for a most interesting, for me at least, discussion. I must say that I do appreciate Simon’s attitude.
Geoff

Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel (Polonius)
User avatar
Geoff Stuttaford
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby simonwheeler » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:09 pm

Thank you Geoff! :!: :oops: 8)
As we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

www.simongordonwheeler.co.uk

Simon
User avatar
simonwheeler
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:22 pm
Location: Wigtown, Scotland

Re: Your views on how it works please...

Postby Geoff Stuttaford » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:43 pm

You’re welcome, Simon. See ya down the pub !http://forum.britishdowsers.org/posting.php?mode=reply&f=35&t=628#
Geoff

Those friends thou hast, and their adoption tried, grapple them to thy soul with hoops of steel (Polonius)
User avatar
Geoff Stuttaford
 
Posts: 965
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:56 pm
Location: Weston-super-Mare


Return to Metaphysics & Spirituality

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron