March 2008 - Heroes of the Dawn - related material

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March 2008 - Heroes of the Dawn - related material

Postby Ian Pegler » Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:07 am

RELATED THREADS

Llangollen's Holy Grail legend - new research
March 2006 - Valle Crucis

As a follow-up to my recently published Heroes of the Dawn article in Dowsing Today I thought I'd put this up for the benefit of anyone wanting to do some follow-up work.

A complete list of references and notes (all 45 of them!) is available from the BSD office and they are also given in the next posting below, however I thought I'd put the relevant links to web-pages here, along with additional stuff not mentioned in the references, to make it easier to surf to.

Holy Grail Vision - BBC website. Ref 6 in the article.

Llangollen tourism website - Ref 21 in the article.

Valle Crucis abbey - Large images of the Grave slabs at Valle Crucis. Ref 22 in the article.

News article relating to Guto'r Glyn translation project - BBC website. Ref 45 in the article.

That covers all the direct references to websites mentioned in the paper. Here is some supplementary material that may be of interest:

Rhygyvarch's Life of St. David - The A. W. Wade-Evans' translation online. see Ref 10 in the article.

Timeless myths - Arthurian and Celtic mythology.

Da Vinci Code tourism - BBC website. "Business leaders in Llangollen are hoping for a tourism spin-off from the literary blockbuster turned film, The Da Vinci Code." Steve Blake talks about the Templars buried at Valle Crucis abbey.

The Holy Grail's link to N.Wales another Steve Blake article, from 2006.

What's with the Abbey? - BBC site. Updated to show the "Ghost in the window" mentioned in the article.

King Arthur conquers tourist trade another BBC article on Arthurian tourism in Llangollen.

Fulk Fitz Warine translation This mediaeval story mentions Bran Castle - a reference to Dinas Bran. It is known to have influenced the Continental Grail Romances.

MPs fight over origins of Arthur How members of the British Parliament fought over the Arthurian legend to get Speilberg to make a TV series in their respective back yards. Good for a laugh. See also this link and this link.

Harlean 3859 Genealogies - An online copy of this important manuscript, taken from Peter Bartrum's Early Welsh Geneological Tracts. See ref 32 in HOTD. This link to a Latin version replaces the link to the English translation on WikiSource, as this proved to be inaccurate.

This PDF document from Denbighshire County Council reveals the intention to explore promoting Llangollen's links with the Grail myth to tourists:

Denbighshire County Council wrote:Joseph of Arimethea [sic], the Holy Grail, Castell Dinas Bran, the spring of St Collen, Eliseg's Pillar, Gueinevere's Cross [sic]and the early archaeology at Valle Crucis provide ample stories to bring the Dark Ages in this area to life.


This PDF file is a local newspaper which contains an article about the 2001 ground-scans done at Valle Crucis abbey.


A new book on Guto'r Glyn

A new book entitled A Life of Guto'r Glyn, authored by E. A. Rees, has recently been published by y Lolfa. This is the first ever attempt at a biography of the poet. On page 87, E. A. Rees writes:

He [Robert Trevor] was buried at Glyn y Groes [Valle Crucis abbey], where, Guto says, the Holy Grail (Sant Greal) was kept.


This was published on the the 12th of March 2008. The March edition of Dowsing Today arrived through my letterbox the day before - so I beat him to it - just! [see additional comments in later post]

On page 179 of his book, E. A. Rees writes concerning the book on the Holy Grail loaned by the abbot of Neath to abbot Dafydd of Valle Crucis:

E. A. Rees wrote:The manuscript which Trahearn [abbot of Neath] possessed has been preserved to this day. The abbot's [i.e. Dafydd, abbot of Valle Crucis] interest in the book may have been more than merely scholarly. In his elegy to Robert Trevor in 1452, Guto speaks of the Holy Grail being kept at Glyn y Groes [Valle Crucis abbey]. The interest of the abbot Dafydd in the book of the Grail some 30 years later may have been connected with efforts by the abbot to authenticate their grail in opposition to rival claims. The reconstruction of the abbey was part of a wider scheme to raise its status and to attract more pilgrims.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :!: :!: :!:

I don't know where Professor Rees gets this idea from. It could be just speculation of course.

The book in question ("Y Seint Greal") was translated by the Reverend Robert Williams in 1876 under the auspices of W.W.E. Wynne, who had taken part in over-seeing the initial excavation of Valle Crucis with Viscount Dungannon in the 1850's. The collection of manuscripts (including "Y Seint Greal") in the possession of W.W.E. Wynne ended up in the National Library of Wales as the Peniarth collection.

Llangollen museum

Here's the link to the Llangollen museum website, where they have a lot of online resources, including archive photos, documents, genealogical info etc. They opened in April 2004 and had more than 32000 visitors in the first year, apparently. There are images of archive photos of Valle Crucis and Castell Dinas Bran. They have a section set aside for researchers looking into local history, ancestry, etc. Definitely worth a visit.

A New Age Perspective

For a more New Age perspective on these matters you might like to read The Grail Journey Through Wales by Megan Wingfield. One of the "earth chakras" on her energy-line is Valle Crucis abbey. Another is Strata Florida abbey in Mid Wales, from whence the fabled Nanteos Cup is thought to have originated.

Don't trust Wikipedia

I just spent two days at the National Library of Wales following up references on Wikipedia, which turned out to be completely bogus. The level of scholarship is so poor it's beyond belief. What a waste of e-space. Don't waste your time. Consequently, when looking at information on other websites, make sure it isn't copied from Wikipedia or you're liable to wind up on a wild goose chase.

Update

I've replaced the link to the English translation of Harlean MS 3859 on WikiSource as this proved to be inaccurate.

Valle Crucis on Youtube

There are various video-clips of Valle Crucis on Youtube including this one of a "teaser trailer" for the forthcoming Virtual Tour. Like the soundtrack - groovy ! 8)

CLICK HERE for the teaser-trailer.

Llangollen website revamped

There is a revamped version of the Llangollen tourist website at http://www.llangollen.org.uk/. If you surf there and click where it says "Land of Myth and Legend" this opens up several tabs, some of which link to pages pertaining to this whole subject. Much of this information is derived from The Keys to Avalon published by Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd in 2000.

Here are some random comments:

On the page Glastonbury or Glaestingaburh there is this:

If so, does this mean Valle Crucis Abbey is the true site of the many traditions that Glastonbury holds so dear?

The written traditions may be intriguing but the evidence gathered so far of what lies beneath the ruins of Valle Crucis Abbey is tantalising!!


This is a reference to the excavations of Reverend Owen, along with the ground scans done in 2001.

On the Valle Crucis page there is the following:

Many original features remain, including the glorious west front complete with an elaborate, richly carved doorway, beautiful rose window and 14th century inscription 'Abbot Adams carried out this work; may he rest in peace. Amen'.


The abbot's name was Adam, not Adams. However, according to George Vernon Price there were two abbots at Valle Crucis, both called Adam. The first was Adda Fawr of Trevor also known as Adda ap Iorwerth of Pengwern. He was abbot between 1240-1247 or there abouts. The second one was simply called Adam or Adda (the Welsh equivalent) and his time as abbot was between 1332-1352. The restoration of the West front (and the rose window) is usually attributed to the second Adam although George Vernon Price mistakenly attributes it to both of them.

Also on the same web-page:

In fact he even uncovered a copy of the Koran concealed within a wall, which must have been brought back to Llangollen by one of the Knights Templar's, whose grave slabs he also discovered and are now on display.


Have they been reading my paper???

Also...

All the artefacts were placed in a museum on the site, which unfortunately closed in the 1950s, with the displays mysteriously disappearing.


I understood that the artifacts were taken for 'safe-keeping' during WWII as happened with many arts and treasures, but never returned.

Also...

The written traditions may be intriguing but the evidence gathered so far of what lies beneath the ruins of Valle Crucis Abbey is tantalising!!


Another reference to the ground scans. I see no reason why more work of this nature could not also be done in the caravan park or in the area between the caravan park and Eliseg's Pillar. If it's that tantalising, why stop there??


I will add more later

Ian


I.P. Edited to add Megan Wingfield link - 12.11.09
I.P. Edited to mention references - 14.3.08
I.P. Edited to mention Guto'r Glyn book by E.A. Rees - 3.4.08
I.P. Edited to mention Megan Wingfield's book - 8.4.08
I.P. Edited to add more info on E.A. Rees book 13.4.08
I.P. Edited to add into on Llangollen museum and link to Denbighshire Council document 21.4.08
I.P. Edited to add section on Wikipedia - 2.5.08
I.P. Edited to add section on Valle Crucis on Youtube
I.P. Edited to change link to Harlean MS 3859 and modifed Wikipedia section
I.P. Edited to add section on new Llangollen website
I.P. Edited to add link to Dee Valley Courier article
I.P. Edited to modify link to Llangollen tourism site (second link in list)
I.P. Edited to put Denbighshire County Council document quote in markup 10.11.08
I.P. Edited to add cross references to related threads 4.7.10
I.P. Edited to add another Steve Blake article 16.11.11
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Re: Heroes of the Dawn - References

Postby Ian Pegler » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:38 am

Below are the references and notes for Heroes of the Dawn as they appear in the unabridged version of the paper:

References
[1] The Keys to Avalon, Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd, Element Books 2000, p216.
[2] Marwnad Robert Trefor. p50 of Gwaith Guto'r Glyn, compiled and edited by Ifor Williams and J. Llywelyn Williams, Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru (University of Wales Press) 1961.
[3] My translation, see The Man with the Holy Grail, published in Dowsing Today, December 2006.
[4] An Account of Valle Crucis Abbey, printed and published by Huw Jones, 19-?
[5] This account appeared in Valle Crucis Abbey's golden figures in Country Quest 32/12 (1992) p.25 by Richard Holland.
[6] See http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/northeast/gu ... rail.shtml. The story was also reproduced in Richard Holland's book, Haunted Wales: a survey of Welsh ghostlore, Landmark Publishing Ltd., 2005.
[7] Archaeologia Cambrensis 1846, p17.
[8] Enwau Tir a Gwlad, Melville Richards, Gwasg Gwynedd 1998.
[9] "When Joseph and his companions left Galafort, they took with them the Holy Vessel called the Grail and went to preach here and there, until they arrived in North Wales". p130 of Lancelot Graal - The Old French Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation, N. J. Lacy, New York, Garland 1993.
[10] Rhygyvarch's Life of Saint David, translated by A. Wade Evans, London, SPCK, 1923, p9.
[11] Gwaith Dafydd Benfras Ac Eraill O Feirdd Hanner Cyntaf Y Drydedd Ganrif Ar Ddeg (Cyfres Beirdd Y Tywysogion), R. Geraint Gruffydd, Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru.
[12] Pendragon - The Definitive Account of the Origins of Arthur, Steve Blake and Scott Lloyd, Rider 2002, p. 92.
[13] See also my comments in The Man with the Holy Grail, published in Dowsing Today, December 2006.
[14] Pendragon, op. cit. p193.
[15] See my article on Valle Crucis Abbey, p4. Dowsing Today, March 2006.
[16] Valle Crucis Abbey, op. cit.
[17] An Account of Valle Crucis Abbey, Huw Jones, op. cit.
[18] Archaeologia Cambrensis, 1894, p219.
[19] Valle Crucis Abbey, George Vernon Price, Brython Press 1952.
[20] The Keys to Avalon, op. cit. p190.
[21] See the news item on the Llangollen website: http://www.llangollen.org/news/news_explorer.asp
[22] Valle Crucis Abbey, D. H. Evans and Jeremy K. Knight, CADW: Welsh Historic Monuments, 1995, p48. See also http://www.castlewales.com/valle01.html
[23] Valle Crucis Abbey, George Vernon Price, Brython Press 1952.
[24] Valle Crucis Abbey, George Vernon Price, op. cit.
[25] The ancestors of Robert Trevor may be found in Welsh Genealogies A.D. 300-1400 vol. 4. Tudur Trefor 14. Peter Bartrum, University of Wales 1983. His descendants may be found in Welsh Genealogies A.D. 1400-1500 Tudur Trefor 14 (B, D).
[26] Gwaith Guto'r Glyn, Ifor Williams and J. Ll. Williams, Gwasg Prifysgol Cymru, 1961 p324.
[27] Gwaith Guto'r Glyn, op. cit. p287.
[28] Welsh Genealogies op. cit.
[29] Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts, Peter Bartrum, 1966, p103.
[30] The Keys to Avalon, op. cit. p123.
[31] Trioedd Ynys Prydein: The Triads of the Island of Britain, edited by Rachel Bromwich, University of Wales Press, Third Edition 2006 p290.
[32] See The Keys to Avalon, p 125 op. cit. See also Early Welsh Genealogical Tracts, Bartrum, op. cit. p9. Part of Harlean M.S. 3859 translates as: "Aballac son of Amalech who was the son of Beli the Great and Anna, his mother whom they say to be cousin of the Virgin Mary, mother of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
[33] Gwaith Guto'r Glyn, op. cit. p47.
[34] Trioedd Ynys Prydein: op cit.
[35] TYP 81 from Peniarth 50. See Trioedd Ynys Prydein p211. Rachel Bromwich, op cit.
[36] The Grail - from Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol, Roger Sherman Loomis, Princeton University Press 1991 p55. Loomis lists nine other published scholars who accept this idea.
[37] Perceval - The Story of the Grail translated by Burton Raffel, Yale University 1999. Many other translations are available.
[38] Merlin and the Grail, Nigel Bryant, D. S. Brewer 2001. Other translations are available.
[39] Robert may have been working from an earlier unknown source. However, the often cited reference to Joseph of Arimathea coming to Britain in William of Malmesbury's De Antiquitate Glastoniensis Ecclesiae is known to be a later interpolation by a Glastonbury monk, dating to about the mid thirteenth century. See The Grail - from Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol, R. S. Loomis op. cit. p252.
[40] The Grail - from Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol, R. S. Loomis op. cit. p56.
[41] National Library of Wales, MS. Peniarth 77, p214. R. S. Loomis suggests that Bran ap Dyfnwal was sometimes equated with Bran ap Llyr, see The Grail - from Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol, R. S. Loomis op. cit. p60. There may have also been a confusion with Bran Galed o'r Gogledd ("Bran the Niggard from the North") see Trioedd Ynys Prydein, op cit. p292. This latter is the Bran mentioned in M.S. Peniarth 77. Guto'r Glyn mentions Bran Galed in one of his poems (see Gwaith Guto'r Glyn, p.218 op. cit.).
[42] Trioedd Ynys Prydein, Rachel Bromwich op. cit. p260.
[43] From Branwen, Daughter of Llyr in The Mabinogion, translated by Gwyn Jones and Thomas Jones, Dragon's Dream 1982, p45.
[44] The Grail - from Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol, R. S. Loomis op. cit. p13.
[45] See this web-page: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/6253635.stm

Edited by I.P. 11.8.11 - added link, removed spurious characters.
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Re: Heroes of the Dawn - related material

Postby Safebreaker » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:15 pm

I enjoyed your well-researched article in DT - well done. Just a quick, and probably useless, afterthought re charred timbers, the old builder I referred to in a previous post was Welsh! As usual, a mine of useless information!
Best wishes,
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Re: Heroes of the Dawn - related material

Postby Ian Pegler » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:04 am

Thanks Safebreaker, glad you enjoyed the article. :)

Some of the ground between the Latrine and the Monk's Dining Hall at Valle Crucis is very boggy. They would have definitely needed to do something to stop the timbers from rotting. Although I suspect that part of the reason it's now so boggy is there are mediaeval drains around there which are no longer working. There's one going from the well in the cloister towards the latrine and another one going from the east side of the latrine in the direction of the fish-pond (eeeeewww!! Lovely! :shock: ).

Ian
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The Ghost in the Window

Postby Ian Pegler » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:41 pm

Regarding the Ghost in the Window, I find some of the responses on the BBC site very interesting. It seems that someone else has photographed the same face in a different room, and has now handed the photo over.

Ian
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Re: Heroes of the Dawn - related material

Postby Ian Pegler » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:16 am

He [Robert Trevor] was buried at Glyn y Groes [Valle Crucis abbey], where, Guto says, the Holy Grail (Sant Greal) was kept.


This was published on the the 12th of March 2008. The March edition of Dowsing Today arrived through my letterbox the day before - so I beat him to it - just!


Now I think about it, I mentioned this in Part 2 in Dec. 2006. Oh well, point is, you read it first in Dowsing Today - probably!.

Ian
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Re: The Ghost in the Window

Postby Ian Pegler » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:01 am

Ian Pegler wrote:Regarding the Ghost in the Window, I find some of the responses on the BBC site very interesting. It seems that someone else has photographed the same face in a different room, and has now handed the photo over.

Ian


I went back there again recently and spoke to the guy in the abbey shop. They've had three photos handed over. The one on the BBC website mentioned previously, another taken in the sacristy, which was pretty dreadful and a third which has mysteriously gone missing. This last one apparently was quite clear and was of a white figure, taken in the cloister, but it's gone now.

From psychometry I get that a temporary altar had been set up in the chapter-house for some reason. I have no confirmation of this yet. Does anyone else get this?

Regarding my 2003 psychometry experiment, it now seems that there was indeed a female presence in the abbey during mediaeval times and in fact, the new CADW booklet reveals that in 1234 the abbot was ticked off for this because women were banned under a strictly enforced Cistercian rule. It seems, however, that he got off with a slap on the wrist.

Ian
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Re: March 2008 - Heroes of the Dawn - related material

Postby Ian Pegler » Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:38 am

from the BBC...

Hi-tech centre brings abbey alive

Holograms, a virtual reality tour and 3-D goggles are being used to bring a 14th Century abbey back to life.

They are part of a new "interpretation centre" designed to explain in an interactive way what life was like at Valle Crucis Abbey, near Llangollen.

Visitors can take a virtual reality tour of the abbey in its heyday, with an animated monk as a guide.


CLICK HERE to read the article...

Ian
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